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Vevier Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 1642 Location: everywhere
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:10 pm Post subject: Ceridwel's idea for a new class |
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From Ceridwel:
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Introduce a new neutral-align hybrid class to give a neutral flavoured option for folks who like playing Paladins and DKs: Samurai. Basically I want to be able to play a neutral warriorish/hybrid class that has third attack and detect invis, dammit! |
From Black Widow:
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...and why would a samurai have detect invis (assuming the class idea is valid)? Samurai aren't spellcasters, they're elite warriors... Think about it. Ninjas are their enemies, and they learned how to avoid being seen by samurai.
On another note entirely, the term "samurai" is distinctly Japanese, and historically speaking (at least according to a book I read about the samurai... It may or may not still be in my personal library) calling one of those warriors a "samurai" would've made him angry, as it would be akin to calling a knight from Western civilization a squire because of the specific meaning of the term.
The point I'm trying to make is that a different name than "samurai" would be more appropriate. And I'm not even going into references like Miyamoto Musashi, the Iron Maiden song "Sun and Steel" (about that particular person), or the cartoon show Samurai Jack. |
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Ceridwel Immortal
Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 3388 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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From lionSpyre:
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+1 to neutral hybrid class, although Samurai does sound like a fighter archetype. What if this class is juxtaposed by the selection between lawful and chaotic, like paladins and dark-knights are juxtaposed against their good and evil alignment? I'm just spitballing here, but the idea of a neutral hybrid class is very intriguing. |
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Vevier Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 1642 Location: everywhere
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Cer, I missed that one. Not intentionally! Sorry LionSpyre! |
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Xerties
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 484
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Posted: Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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I like this idea. Were you thinking it'd be a communer, or caster? I agree with some others that I don't think samurai is quite right. But the name is highly dependent upon if its casting or communing. |
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Ceridwel Immortal
Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 3388 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:20 am Post subject: |
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I envisioned communer. I’m not married to “samurai” (though I think we have the spot for them in Serin - we have monks and shadows already). Plus an area idea - Samurai Castle, samurai armor, some new sword types (nodachi, wakazashi).
What I feel pretty firm on though is 3rd attack and detect invis. Again, a neutral equivalent to paladin and dk. |
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Xerties
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 484
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:57 am Post subject: |
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Again, love the concept. I think samurai has too much baggage. Sort of pigeonholes people into a certain RP, just from cultural knowledge. Sort of the same reason Ninjas were renamed. I do think a samurai themed area with those elements would be awesome.
For a communer, I'd recommend the name 'Sentinel.' I think it evokes a similar feel to the Paladin name, but more stoic and not so dogmatic. Warpriest is another option, but I think it's too close to Paladin. Runners up: Guardian, Nomad, Inquisitor.
If you wanted to go caster (after all, DKs are casters too) you could go with 'Warlock'. That sort of fits the communing aspect too, at least in other fantasy games, what with the entity pact and all. Though that typically is more casting than melee, but it doesn't have to be. Honorable mentions: Spellblade, Battlemage or Warmage,
Lots of options and definitely a cool idea for a class. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:54 am Post subject: |
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The oath of protection paladin is basically already a samurai. Samurais are not neutral...
and anyway also going to be working on psis. |
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Grayden
Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 642 Location: Spokane, WA
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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Not an expert, but Samurai would be lawful for sure but any alignment, especially neutral. There were plenty of brutal iron fisted and good hearted land stewards, but law/code of ethics was above all, unless all I have read is lie.
Stepping away from that title, may I suggest "Spiritual Warrior".
The term spiritual warrior is used in Tibetan Buddhism for one who combats the universal enemy: self-ignorance, the ultimate source of suffering according to Buddhist philosophy. A heroic being with a brave mind and ethical impulse.
On top of your third attack and detect invisible may I suggest the following.
First strike (skill) - moving with supernatural speed you attack faster than perception (an attack that lags your target getting into combat, basically a full round of attack like your target was delayed aiding combat.
Ancestors Guidance (spell) - basically bless reskinned to fit theme. |
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lionSpyre
Joined: 07 Sep 2015 Posts: 114
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Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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Xerties had some great suggestions for names. The problem is that I think none of them evoke a neutral-specific alignment. This is particularly true for Battlemage, Warmage, or Spellblade. Sentinel comes as close to any as hitting the mark on a neutral-specific alignment. Spiritual Warrior fits the bill, but it's a mouthful.
To nail the specific name, I think the RP component has to get locked down. What exactly are these neutral hybrids sentinels of? How are their roles akin to, but different from, the Keepers, similar to how many paladin roles (other than Justice paladins) are akin to Knights, and Dark Knights to Legion. What are they protecting? What are they fighting for?
This leads me to thinking more deeply about them being 'Green Knights' or 'Eldritch Knights'. They represent an order older than time itself that predates modern notions of morality. Nature is rife with light and dark, good and evil.. these Sentinels preserve that balance that has allowed the world to flourish. So a lot of their spells can be borrowed from Druid. This makes coding them easier too. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Grayden -I don't think buddhism is a neutral philosophy at all - its famous for its compassion and kindness. Buddha is a figure of benevolence. The Dhala Lama is one of the kindest mutha fuckas on the planet. I am sure DnD nerds will try to debate it, but they are plainly wrong.. and just read about the Samurai and you will see why the arey are good align too. They pretty much follow the same code as our Knight virtues - loyal, fearless, never lie, and fight evil. They considered their armor SACRED. Plus, everybody wants to own a samurai sword, cuz they are heroes. a neutral would only sit around polishing that, and nobody would care, its what was done with those swords that makes them awesome. death before dishonor and all that. |
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Ceridwel Immortal
Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 3388 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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There are evil samurai in the movie Sucker Punch. But I digress.
LionSpyre raises a good point about the RP requirements behind the class. We would need to flush this out. Tactically what I see this class doing is filling a gap of a neutral hybrid class playing Justices and Keepers. Someone recently complained about paladins in Justice - this would solve that. |
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deioped
Joined: 25 Aug 2014 Posts: 80
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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Since Paladins are naturally suited for Knights and DKs for Legion, maybe this class should have a natural disposition towards being Keepers? |
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twerpalina
BANNED
Joined: 16 Mar 2018 Posts: 307 Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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bard is a neutral hybrid |
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Mikoos
Joined: 03 Nov 2012 Posts: 474
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Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say druids are a neutral hybrid as well. |
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deioped
Joined: 25 Aug 2014 Posts: 80
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:30 am Post subject: |
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But bards and druids can be evil. They also don't champion a cause.
Paladins and DKs are the embodiment of their own causes and are expected to uphold standards. Wouldn't this neutral hybrid be expected to champion a cause as well?
It's just kinda hard to champion a cause that is neutral. Most people are neutral because they are apathetic. The ones who are passionate about some kind of Balance usually end up swaying to one side eventually.. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10368 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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ceridwel dont take this personally but you are basing your views on samurai on what you watched in cartoons or something. go to a japanese art exhibit and we'll talk about it. and incase you dont understand how serious i mean it, i'ill literally go to japan to have a samurai class done right and not be something i have to unlink in 10 years because of progressives. so you can visit an art show.
samurais are proud swordmasters. they do things like block arrows (and bb-gun ball bearings) with their sword just to flex. and they are the guys that act when a moral response is called for. you can find that on youtube if you do your due diligence. one of the most famous samurai is an african guy. look up yasuke |
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Ceridwel Immortal
Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 3388 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Totally not taking it personally Dav - I believe ya. I'm over this potential new class being called Samurai, all good. Lots of good ideas coming from the community, keep 'em coming. |
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BlackWidow
Joined: 24 Apr 2014 Posts: 484 Location: Yes
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Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:05 am Post subject: |
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I'll admit I wasn't trying to discard the overall idea of a neutral hybrid (if we can manage to come up with a proper name and a concept to go with it I'm certainly cool with it), so much as point out the specific connotations and the problems that come with naming it a samurai.
As for Warlock as a name... I don't like that because Warlocks tend to be considered evil. Another definition of a warlock is a male witch (for example, some RuneScape holiday items I got one Halloween are either Warlock's or Witch's items depending on the current gender of your character).
I suppose we probably don't want to borrow from Warhammer 40K either... Bladesinger is another specific class name which comes to mind, but I am sure that can be discarded immediately.
Not to rip off ideas from elsewhere, but perhaps a conjurer or summoner would be an option? Illusionists don't make anything permanent or basically "real", invokers don't create living objects but can create food and water and unleash the elements, and the necromancer creates rather than summons its army generally.
Another thought I have involves some sort of soul watcher or somebody who is capable of taking souls to other places... Something like Charon in Ancient Greek mythology, or Yorick (and, in a twisted and perverted sense towards evil, Thresh too) from LoL |
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Ashlyn
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Posts: 291
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Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:21 am Post subject: |
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Instead of Samurai, do something like Swashbuckler |
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Grayden
Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Posts: 642 Location: Spokane, WA
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Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Dav- you make a good point about using anything from Buddhism and the power of predisposition in any given name.
If building a custom class, maybe you need a randomly generated name like how player names are done.
For example if your class is called "Carolina" all I can think of is the state names and I would have to reference the class instead of pop culture.
Also a true neutral trained fighter would be a Mercenary, but those motivated by gold could be good or evil, I start thinking as I read Mercenary so make the new class a Mercersburg.
The Mercersburg class, a true neutral warrior concerned with self survival, building skills and gaining knowledge in a path of survival of the fittest.
The point I am trying to make is that the name is slowing and skewing the process. We should go back to what Ceridwel wants in the class, give it a random name and then flesh out from there. |
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