Invoker feedback thread.

[Dispater]

[Erlwith]

Barrier is not that great of a spell... neither is manashield. You guys sound dumb. Honestly, if it was that easy I bet you guys would be doing it and not complaining about it.

[Dispater]

[Erlwith]

Idk man. Barrier used to fall in like 10-15 seconds on my 800 mana stormgiant healer before it nerfed parry. If you can't manage to do that against gnomes with no parry and less (??? i forget stats) shield block, idk what to suggest.

This game is about strategy at the end of the day, not just spur of the moment combat decisions.

Invoker Justices have for the longest time been notoriously hard to kill, and it has nothing to do with barrier. Not to mention, an invoker with medic scrolls and restorer wands has always been incredibly lethal and difficult to kill in the right hands. Most people see invokers as one trick ponys and that is how they play against them, but a smart invoker has a lot of tricks up their sleeves, even more since these updates.

[Davairus]

I supposed I COULD be wrong about this, but my impression was running them out of mana was the easiest way to kill invokers. With no mana they have no dps output for hellstreams/chain lightnings and they can no longer cast their defensive spells. Also note that if you blow an invokers mana completely out and he spells drop off, there is no way he will regen enough mana for full rebuff of spells, nevermind be able to stream you. Of course, if youre just looking to survive 3v1 long enough to flee and quit, barrier is fine...

[Dispater]

[Olyn]

[Davairus]

Let me see your logs dispater. I can appreciate that a gnome invoker justice is trouble, but its kind of the special guard/justice shield (it has huge stats) more than anything. Is this vs criminals or vs everybody?

[Dispater]

[tayyah]

I dont know is it just me, but isnt this discussion about barrier making them op? That log you used magic weapons the entire time, what dav is sayin is you should use vuln weapons and deplete his mana, the only new thing i even see him using in this log is ray of vind, and I guess a failed meteor

[Dispater]

[Erlwith]

Well m1co. First of all, you're letting him initiate almost every round. You're getting rebuked raped like a silly pancake because you're using chaotic weapons. Your saves looked pretty crappy too.

These are extremely basic combat things that would have probably sent him running. I wouldn't use this log as proof of anything else but how poorly Orav played that fight.

[Vertas]

Barrier ratio must be off, and meteor swarm seems a bit OP, one round lag and seems to bypass resistance.


http://ar.invokation.net/logs/view.php?id=4871

[Vertas]

The changes are cool they really are, but if you think about it. Invokers can cure (via scrolls and wands), sanc, immune to trip (scrolls or potion) and bash/bodyslam, all weapon skills hobble disarm etc, some of the best damage spells in the game, the only mage class with two defenses, the ability to disarm (ice), DoT (fire), dispel while doing damage (lightning), immune to all types of damage, but not all at the same time.


I just feel like they are incredibly overpowered. There should at least be a way to protect yourself against fire, ice, or lightning, afflictive saves do absolutely nothing to stop the disarm effect of ice, and with an incredibly small lag time you could hypothetically keep an opponent disarmed the majority of the time.

[Dispater]

Also the effect that hellstream puts on you, also prevents you from recalling, like a curse? I may be wrong, but someone told me that. If that's not the case, i wonder what does the hellstream affect do?

[Olyn]

Getting hellstreamed boosts your resistance to lightning, fire, and ice. If it is stopping you from recalling, please report it on the bugs forum. The disarm affect of ice is dependent on the victim previously getting chilled (mal) by the invoker.

[Davairus]

OK I looked that log over. It actually seemed.. reasonable?


Its actually a log of what I had in mind for barrier to work out like. One of the big weakness of invoker which makes them easy kills was just being dirted by some ranger and dropping in 3 rounds to pet damage. You can see the barrier has basically redirected that damage to deplete his mana pool instead of his health pool.. rather than this confrontation just be a one-sided joke. I know from my own experiences that a ranger with pets and sanc up used to SHIT ON an invoker. Literally shit on them. Having barrier up to absorb charmie damage is not a million miles away from just using some mana to spam fireballs and get rid of them in 3 rounds to just take them out of the fight, except that you can actually use s pells that are effective vs the player opponent instead in the barrier case (i.e. use ray of vindication to start), and it isnt as likely that the other player will just run off and hide and come back with pets again.

Notice he is fighting with flame arrows instead of the old method where he wouldve just spammed hellstreams and done tons of damage without any planning. That's less damage than invokers use to do with magic spells and require actual thinking on top. The ray opening is good because that does a damage of your hp %. That probbaly needs its mana cost increased. The hellstream finish attempt is way too early so that would've cost him the kill regardless.

I think the main reason it was pretty lopsided is using wild weapon vs the Justice shield.. huge mistake.. rebuke is a ton of damage reflection. There is also a dispel that landed right after murder so ranger had to eat a round of damage without sanc, which makes it seem like there is no aff save in use vs the invoker either. He is shooting himself in the foot on two counts if that is the case. He shouldnt expect to win that fight.

Cabal skill healing is cheesy but its another discussion for another day. When I consider cabals I think its best to think of them as how it plays out in group vsgroup combats. They are advantaged 1v1 vs uncaballeds especially a criminal vs Justice.

Let me see a better log than that one. too much dumb in it to really tell if barrier has an issue. Too many external factors from being cabal vs uncabal. Those issues existed before invokers were modified.

[Vertas]

If you say that that was how it was intended Dav I'll accept that, some of the feedback I've received suggests that there are ways around getting stuck with that. I like that the game is evolving more from minlessness... It used to be dirt disarm bash to death, and if you had a no disarm weapon you were probably going to win. Yeah there's part of me that hates it but I guess I just need to understand the game a bit better to be better at it.

[Dispater]

[Davairus]

Yeah we will require vulns to go through barrier, hopefully including weapons that do material vulns (this is a bit harder). This should be in balance because the big vuln races have insane mana pools (due to compensatory mage stats) which is what I think you are getting screwed over by with this gnome invoker point. Wouldn't make barrier worthless but blocking a vuln is really stretching it. I am pretty sure that disease damage goes through mana shield on avian invokers, and I wanted vulns to go th rough barrier the same. Once we have that in place we can wait for human invokers and start worrying about the mana reduction coefficient.