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Xerties
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 484
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:42 am Post subject: Endgame Sets |
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This is something that spun out of a conversation last night. It pertains to the endgame sets, such as Titanium Tenor or Torments of Hell (but not exclusively them). The question is:
Should high-level rare, endgame sets exist?
I am of the opinion that they should not. The idea of giving additional bonuses to characters who are already wearing some of the best gear in the game seems misguided. You taking the most decked out people and making them even harder to fight.
Back in the day the solution to this was easy. HGOD. However, the pbase doesn't really support that approach anymore. The player culture has also moved away from that being an acceptable option.
To my mind, the purpose of sets should be a stepping stone to get you quickly back into the swing of things. A way to relatively easily get back to about 75% strength after a full loot. Then you can begin to supplant your set with good gambleds or high-level rares without having to maul/decimate your way through Winter. Sets like Treant Thews, Malicious Beast, or Golden Flame are perfect for this and I like them a lot. It's actually a bit of a challenge to do better than them with med-high quality gambled/forge (stuff like 4/-1/-1. I know it's possible to do better than that, but that's the baseline I'm talking about). A full kit of such things only gives you slightly higher hit/dam than Thews for example, but much greater flexibility. You can then set to replacing those with top tier rares or the harder gambles.
Sets can also be a nice boost for lowbies to give a good power jump. Completing Champ Glory is tough and fun on a newer char and you can really appreciate the extra stats. All of this to say that I don't hate sets as a concept, just the application on endgame equipment that is already supreme.
What does everyone else thing about these sets? Should they stay, or should they go now? If they go I know it'll be trouble, but if they stay it'll be double. Ok I'm done. |
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Solmundi Immortal
Joined: 29 Oct 2021 Posts: 29
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 2:01 am Post subject: |
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Personally I've never used end game sets or willingly went out of my way to get one. I've heard good things, but gambling and forging is more my style.
However I think they should stay. There are always going to be the haves and the have nots. Life at the bottom can feel terrible, but if you play it right you'll find creative solutions during which will flesh out your character and improve you as a player.
And for those at the top, it tests the player and the character. Are they going to horde? They'll get no where and will do nothing. If that's fun for them so be it. The fear of losing gear can hit like a truck, but those with the experience and ability to get the gear should be rewarded.
If somebody with top tier gear were really bugging me, I'd roll a shaman and put in time and effort. |
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Ashlyn
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 Posts: 291
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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Tenor has been nerfed so hard it’s a minor advantage. The power of the individual pieces is more problematic than the set bonus. Torments is hugely powerful, but so difficult to get it almost makes it worth giving someone that kind of advantage. I’d like to see more forging/jewelry updates where you can get bonuses from wearing multiple gambled or forged pieces |
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Ceridwel Immortal
Joined: 01 Feb 2008 Posts: 3387 Location: Seattle
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Torments has always bothered me since it is basically a one-class set. If we're going to make such an uber set for one class, let's make one for each class. |
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Dalero
Joined: 13 Oct 2004 Posts: 102 Location: Texas
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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I like the idea of a unique set for each class! I don't even think it needs to be op or anything but it sounds like it could be a really fun alternative to the current end game sets. Maybe have it grant a unique skill for each class, or buff a skill somehow as a reward for using it? |
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Vevier Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 1642 Location: everywhere
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Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2022 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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The problem I've observed with high level sets is that it encourages the movement of BiS items all from one person to another, instead of spreading out over multiple players.
Other questions of balance aside, that is why I would be in favor of fewer high end sets. I'd also like to see new sets to reward role play choices for armor, so you dont get stuck between wearing what you think looks good and what is good. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10358 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:49 am Post subject: |
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Dull idea. Totally removing content is not going to be an option.
Alternatively, some of the Keeper gambled items could bestow "skills" on the user that allow them to access similar abilities as are in sets, e.g. gamble some flying sandals or pass door belt. and then to double down on making that useful, make atonement proc that makes the ground slippy like with ice or maybe a large puddle of werebeast ranger tears or something. so that way warlords just fall over in place when they flee. it'd be just like you were constantly pulling the rug from under them. Much better than the idea you offered to just remove their equipment from the game or that other thread where you tried to remove their cabal powers. that way some Keeper can have a better chance of killing one and remove the equipment from the corpse. instead of the Imms doing it for them. Move the recall as well. The Keepers have everything they need to succeed except the tools. just to clarify, I was not joking.
Last edited by Davairus on Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:00 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Xerties
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 484
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:59 am Post subject: |
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This has nothing to do with Warlords or Keepers. It's meant as a discussion regarding the nature of sets, their place in the game, and the benefits of having them applied to top tier equipment. Not restricted to any one cabal, or any cabal at all. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10358 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Its really wrong to not acknowledge the obvious conflict of interest Xerties. It is "the elephant in the room" that is attached to all ideas great and small. Who stands to benefit from this change? Who loses the most? how do you think that affects the proceedings when the change screws someone that a bunch of the immortals really dislike? Every player either consciously or unconsciously follows their own agenda and biases, and nothing makes it more obvious what is REALLY going on when you guys are reaching for content deletion again. |
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Stiehl26
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 695
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Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2022 1:43 pm Post subject: |
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In a game that’s player base has devolved to a handful of people playing, greatly impacts the power level of said sets. When there were consistently 20-30 people on, it was much harder to acquire and keep a set. Now the tenor and torments get in the hands of already high caliber pkers, consequently making them even more deadly and harder to kill and less likely to lose the sets. Also with imbuing and enchanting, the power creep on set items has become out of control. |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10358 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 1:35 am Post subject: |
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when you guys are posting outdated BS without any idea what is really going on (e.g. imbue recipes have been converted into brews for ages now) it just makes you look like a bunch of lunatics. you need to stop accepting each others delusions and listen to me when I tell you that the set has about 20 hit/dam nerfed off it already. the entire set is 5 dam wearing titanium bracers and that downscales to remove the 1 dam of the titanium bracers if you engrave them. you have a brain! use it |
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Vevier Immortal
Joined: 23 Jul 2008 Posts: 1642 Location: everywhere
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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Or we could have a discussion about something without the developer flipping out and attacking players. Remember Dav, at the end of the day you are the one you who makes or doesn't make changes. You don't have to be an ass on top of it.
You even recognized that the bonus from sets was too high when they were engraved and you nerfed all the sets to account for it. Now some sets are just trash cause you lose bonuses when you do engrave, leaving only the high end sets as useful. Its worth discussing. |
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Ozaru
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Posts: 1076
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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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I am really confused about this conversation regarding sets and equipment. Why do you want better equipment/more sets? Are you trying to increase the pbase to be more willing to pk these higher caliber players that have the sets?
With Mahkto I killed Clemenzo who is an inexperienced thief that definitely doesn't attack anyone HE HAD TENORS. His excuse for having tenors was to see if it worked with sneak. Some of you had to help him get tenors in a concerted effort. Would his equipment be better served to be in the hands of a Knight so they could fight Kryton or out of my hands with Mahkto. This is completely controlled by all of you. How many characters right now are fully loaded with equipment from the dragons and not actively pking, with pieces of the tenors set. This conversation is silly because we have at least 5 or 6 players who are extremely well geared that play infrequently and are not actively pking. While you have active players basically using what is left over and in your opinion getting stomped because they don't have the eq that you are hoarding.
2 people can have tenors
2 people can have torments
Not to mention all the gambled and forged equipment you can get yourself |
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Xerties
Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 484
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Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2022 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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See that's sort of the point, Ozaru. With endgame sets you need to have/hoard the whole thing to make it effective, even moreso with engraves. If Torments didn't exist, people might feel fine with just one bracelet of torment, freeing up the other for someone else. Same with Tenor. They wouldn't feel the need to have fullplate *and* armplates *and* legplates.
All the changes to engrave, imbue, and nerfing the sets themselves is missing the fundamental problem, in my opinion. Engrave didn't need to change, Torments/Tenor/etc needed to go away. Engrave is perfectly fine on Malicious Beast or Golden Flame. It actually helped the lower tier sets quite a bit and can get you into the same ballpark as someone in full winter gear.
Also, something to remember, Ozaru. PK isn't the entirety of the game. It may be the aspect that you enjoy the most, and that's fine. But there are perfectly legitimate reasons for wanting to be well equipped even if a player doesn't frequently PK. For example, you're more effective helping leveling parties if you're well equipped. You can contribute meaningfully to Winter runs. That sort of thing. This is codified in the game by granting bloodshed time for killing boss mobs. |
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Ozaru
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Posts: 1076
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Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:41 am Post subject: |
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That must be awkward, hey guys im a helpful thief ready to go on winter runs to get you the same eq I am wearing. Oh..... since its rare I have the last pieces? Well thats a bummer see you guys in 3 weeks!!! Oh here's a muffin it will fill you up as you get pub stomped by op warlords enjoy! =) |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10358 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:32 am Post subject: |
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just ban heralds from high end rares/sets and there will be enough gear to go around that you wont care about tenor having +3 damroll |
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Dogran Immortal
Joined: 13 Jun 2009 Posts: 1801
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Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:55 am Post subject: |
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Pk isn't the entirety of the game, but that is where endgame sets matter. People who are just in it to rp, can run away, and gear doesn't make that big of a difference in endgame areas when the million consortium log on amd decide to do something. |
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flat4
Joined: 29 May 2014 Posts: 95
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 12:12 am Post subject: |
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removing sets like tenors removes all the gameplay associated with them. The hours of looking at spreadsheets and thinking about what to engrave on which piece of armor and what you can reasonably find by yourself and what you need people to get, what's the likelihood of getting pk'd during the procurement, etc.
it's throwing the baby out with the bath water, it's cutting a whole segment of the game clean out
and if you just remove the best sets then the wound festers and gets reopened for every player it pissed off every time they use any other set and turns the entire game into a poisonous swamp of negative feelings and hatred
ask me how I know
your idea is the worst idea and it's not possible to shit on it hard enough |
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Davairus Implementor
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 10358 Location: 0x0000
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Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2022 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody needs to worry that posts like these will affect the game somehow. |
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beia
Joined: 18 Mar 2006 Posts: 920 Location: Texas
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Posted: Wed May 03, 2023 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Wouldn't it just be better for everyone involved to simply scale up every set to be a potential end game set? Obviously there will be variation with each set, some good for specific classes. This is the only MMORPG I have ever played that has unfair gear balance at endgame. |
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